Texas Appellate Law Podcast

How SCOTX Is Addressing the Coronavirus Pandemic | Blake Hawthorne

March 25, 2020 Todd Smith and Jody Sanders Episode 4
Texas Appellate Law Podcast
How SCOTX Is Addressing the Coronavirus Pandemic | Blake Hawthorne
Chapters
Texas Appellate Law Podcast
How SCOTX Is Addressing the Coronavirus Pandemic | Blake Hawthorne
Mar 25, 2020 Episode 4
Todd Smith and Jody Sanders

Todd and Jody practice #socialdistancing and visit remotely with Blake Hawthorne, the Texas Supreme Court Clerk. Blake talks about the Texas Supreme Court’s response to the Covid-19 virus, the Supreme Court’s emergency orders, access to courts during this time, and tips for remote law practice.

Please contact Todd and Jody with questions, suggestions, or feedback on the episodes:

Todd  todd@appealsplus.com

Jody jody.sanders@kellyhart.com

Information on items discussed:

Blake Hawthorne, Texas Supreme Court clerk, ensuring continuity and operations at SCOTX:  @blakeahawthorne

Texas Supreme Court’s COVID Guideline page, including emergency orders and Zoom guidelines:

http://www.txcourts.gov/media/court-procedures-for-the-2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19/

Some local shelter at home orders:

Dallas:  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6817012-Updated-Amended-Order-March-23-002.html

Fort Worth:  https://www.star-telegram.com/latest-news/article241446971.html

Austin:  https://www.kvue.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-austin-shelter-in-place-covid-19/269-64331d24-5db4-4151-b586-52c02bddb2c0

Zoom—the new way for court proceedings? https://zoom.us/

Judge Emily Miskel (leading the way on Zoom hearings):  https://www.judgeemily.com/

Also a good Twitter follow: @emilymiskel

Notary/declaration statutes Blake referenced:

Tex. Gov’t Code Section 406.107-13 (online notarization):  https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/GV/htm/GV.406.htm#406.107

Texas CPRC 121.006 (regarding remote authorization by notary):  https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CP/htm/CP.121.htm#121.006

Texas CPRC 132.001 (regarding unsworn declarations): https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CP/htm/CP.132.htm#132.001

Episode Transcript:    

Please follow us on Twitter (@dtoddsmith @jodyssanders @texapplawpod) and Facebook (@texapplawpod), subscribe to our podcast, and reach out—we’d love to hear from you!  Check us out on texapplawpod.buzzsprout.com and texapplawpod.com.

Show Notes Transcript

Todd and Jody practice #socialdistancing and visit remotely with Blake Hawthorne, the Texas Supreme Court Clerk. Blake talks about the Texas Supreme Court’s response to the Covid-19 virus, the Supreme Court’s emergency orders, access to courts during this time, and tips for remote law practice.

Please contact Todd and Jody with questions, suggestions, or feedback on the episodes:

Todd  todd@appealsplus.com

Jody jody.sanders@kellyhart.com

Information on items discussed:

Blake Hawthorne, Texas Supreme Court clerk, ensuring continuity and operations at SCOTX:  @blakeahawthorne

Texas Supreme Court’s COVID Guideline page, including emergency orders and Zoom guidelines:

http://www.txcourts.gov/media/court-procedures-for-the-2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19/

Some local shelter at home orders:

Dallas:  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6817012-Updated-Amended-Order-March-23-002.html

Fort Worth:  https://www.star-telegram.com/latest-news/article241446971.html

Austin:  https://www.kvue.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-austin-shelter-in-place-covid-19/269-64331d24-5db4-4151-b586-52c02bddb2c0

Zoom—the new way for court proceedings? https://zoom.us/

Judge Emily Miskel (leading the way on Zoom hearings):  https://www.judgeemily.com/

Also a good Twitter follow: @emilymiskel

Notary/declaration statutes Blake referenced:

Tex. Gov’t Code Section 406.107-13 (online notarization):  https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/GV/htm/GV.406.htm#406.107

Texas CPRC 121.006 (regarding remote authorization by notary):  https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CP/htm/CP.121.htm#121.006

Texas CPRC 132.001 (regarding unsworn declarations): https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CP/htm/CP.132.htm#132.001

Episode Transcript:    

Please follow us on Twitter (@dtoddsmith @jodyssanders @texapplawpod) and Facebook (@texapplawpod), subscribe to our podcast, and reach out—we’d love to hear from you!  Check us out on texapplawpod.buzzsprout.com and texapplawpod.com.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Texas appellate law podcast, covering topics of interest to lawyers handling civil appellate matters in Texas courts. This podcast demystifies appellate law and pulls back the curtain on the Texas appellate system through conversations with judges, court staff, and top trial and appellate practitioners listening to discover best practices and tips for successfully presenting your case, managing your docket and promoting efficiency through legal technology. And now here are your hosts, Todd Smith and Jody Sanders.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible].

Speaker 3:

Welcome back to the Texas appellate law podcast. I'm Jody Sanders and I'm Todd Smith. Like many of you were at home today following the latest developments on the coronavirus front and trying to adjust to this new normal for awhile to help our listeners on that front, we're welcoming back one of our original guests and the person who helped push us to put this podcast together. Blake Hawthorne, the Texas Supreme court clerk. Welcome back, Blake. Thanks. It's nice to be back, although via video conference this time instead of in our courtroom, we're definitely practicing our social distancing on this podcast right now. Absolutely. Well, we knew we wanted to have you back leg, but we didn't expect it to be so soon. Uh, in fact, I believe of the timing of this is gonna work out is you're actually gonna be two episodes in a row because we just released the initial interview that we did with you and we're going, because of the nature of the subject matter, we expect to talk about today, we're going to push this one up in priority and try to get it released within hopefully just a day or two after recording to make sure that folks get the information that we're going to be covering.

Speaker 3:

These recent developments of kind of brought some things to the forefront, I would say, and it would be useful for Texas lawyers to hear from you on things like, uh, how the court is dealing with this coven situation, the coronavirus situation. Um, some of the emergency orders that have been released. And basically where do we go from here where we anticipate, uh, going, uh, to kind of kick it off. It was, I don't know if listeners have had a chance to listen to the justice board interview from earlier this month, but when we were there in the Supreme court courtroom, justice Boyd talked about disaster preparedness and his role on, uh, in leading that charge, the organized, uh, charge on that. Uh, we sure didn't appreciate how quickly things would escalate. Uh, I mean this was literally just a few weeks ago. They're in the court room and uh, the court has taken some what I would think would be unprecedented steps at this point. And you want to kind of give us an overview? I think when you all were here in the courtroom, it was just a week before my office practiced everyone working from home because we foresaw that something like this could be coming down the

Speaker 4:

road. Um, and I think right after or right before, uh, just as what we talked to you, we met in conference and we had talked as a group about what we needed to do to start preparing our own staff. So I had already planned to, uh, as an experiment. Um, cause I'm the person here at the court that's responsible for continuity of operations, planning our plan as it's known in the business. Um, and so of course I wanted to talk to the court about what we were doing to get prepared in case something like this happened. Um, before the AISD, the Austin independent school district shut down. They, before that we had had everyone in the clerk's office work from home, um, myself included, uh, and we worked through that day, uh, issues with our phone system and VPN and other things like that. So when we finally did, um, send people home to work from home, I felt like we were pretty well prepared here in the clerk's office.

Speaker 4:

And I don't think we've really missed a beat in terms of answering phone calls and processing filings. So I think from the, from the outside world, it probably looks pretty much like businesses usual. Obviously here at the court things look very different. It's just me and one other staff person here in the clerk's office. Um, we're in separate offices and we're keeping our distance from each other and yelling at each other outside out of the door sometimes. Um, but uh, we're still picking up the mail and processing that, but it's, it's pretty quiet around here. The parking garage is pretty much empty and I know it's the same situation that other public courts around the state. I know for example, Michael Cruz who's the clerk of the fourth quarter field since San Antonio said that they hadn't mandated bear that everyone worked from home about a week ago. Uh, and that it was just him and his chief deputy clerk there in the clerk's office.

Speaker 4:

I think something similar just happened in Dallas County where they issued a shelter in place order. I know I was talking to the clerk of the County court there, John Warren this morning about what's going on with his staff and I think it's something similar to what we're doing here and they've got just a couple of people in the office that are running the office dealing with anything that might need to be dealt with in the office. And then everyone else is working remotely. But you know, electronic filing has really been the thing that's kind of saved our bacon here and all this and kept the courts moving. I think if we didn't add that, we would really be struggling right now. How, um, how have the justice has changed the way that they operate through this time? Well, they're working remotely obviously and their staff is too now.

Speaker 4:

And, and for them that, that may be the really the biggest change is it normally I think they've got most of their staff is in the office on a daily basis as you know, some of them don't live in Austin and so they may be more accustomed to working from home. So in terms of how they work, it may not be that big of a change for them. Uh, certainly further staff. I think it's a big change. I know the law clerks were sending around instructions to each other about how to use their one drive, um, which I think most of them probably haven't used much until this happened. So I know in some courts what we're seeing is things like one drive and Oh wait, you know, zoom teleconference seem like we're using right now are things that had been sort of accelerated, you know, going back to Michael Cruz, I talked about him cause he used to be a deputy clerk here. And so I'm in contact with him quite a bit. But you know, he talked about how he had a five year plan for getting some technology implemented there and the fourth quarter of appeals and that this is really just accelerated everything that they're rolling out one drive and Microsoft teams and people are learning things that maybe they were um, a little bit resistant to before maybe they weren't excited about using and now they're finding they really need to use it. It's a necessity for them.

Speaker 3:

So it sounds like there's going to be some adjustments or have been some adjustments to the basic workflow, but all the infrastructure was already there. I mean what about the tame system or the or the judges able to access that and continue the normal process there?

Speaker 4:

They can and they always have been able to through VPN they complain a bit that it's a little bit slow sometimes using VPN and using our case management system, which is tames, which is a homegrown system which is hosted on a server here in Austin so they can VPN into it and they can still do their voting remotely. I suspect a lot of them, probably the way they work really is off the website and so they're getting a lot of the briefs just like you would by going to the website and looking at the cases there and reading what they need to read. They're, they're probably getting uh, the purple sheet, which is the list of everything that's been set up on a particular Tuesday. They may be getting that email to them or they may be looking at that list in teams and then go into the website and looking at the briefs there. We do have the ability for them to go into the conference agenda and push a button and have everything sported to drive for them. And it's organized in a folder structure. I don't know how many of them are using that, but they certainly have the ability to do that if they like and and work that way. So everything is actually physically downloading to their computer, no doubt there they are finding a new and maybe more efficient ways to get access to documents that they need in order to do their work.

Speaker 3:

And since the courts kind of jumped on this in the last couple of weeks, there's been a series of emergency orders that have come out dealing with the administration of justice throughout the state. Can you kind of walk us through what those are and tell us some the issues that have

Speaker 4:

come up that probably were unforeseen until they happened? Sure. There've been a total of six emergency orders relating to the COBIT 19 the state of disaster issued since governor Abbott declared the state the disaster it and the state. The first emergency order required all judges in the state to avoid risk to court, staff, parties, attorneys, jurors, and the public, and allow them to modify or suspend any and all deadlines and procedures prescribed by a statute rule or order for a stated period, ending no later than 30 days after the governor stated disaster has been lifted. So essentially this order then goes on to talk about doing things remotely in order to avoid people coming into contact with each other. So in other words, holding hearings via teleconference, uh, the obstacle administrations enter into a statewide contract for zoom, which would maybe we'll talk a little more about later.

Speaker 4:

Um, but it also allows depositions to be conducted remotely. It allows witnesses to testify remotely. So that's kind of the, at the heart of what the first order was about. So the, the second order, uh, clarified that for all those child custody agreements out there, that they should go by the established school schedule. Because as you know, a lot of the schools were closing or redoing their, their schedules, extending their spring breaks and some, there were a lot of issues arising as to, well, the spring break was extended. Did that mean that custody was extended? So the court heard a lot from family law judges about that. So they issued that order.

Speaker 3:

I saw a lot of family law practitioners talking about that on, on Twitter and Facebook. And I think it's great that the court clarified that. So we would avoid a lot of headache. You know, that had to be a difficult situation, but I can, you can only imagine what that would've done to our existing court system if suddenly we had hundreds or thousands of custody modification issues, compliance with the, uh, regular orders. Uh, that was one of the things that I didn't anticipate myself looking at this and I saw that order come out having seen that and heard that a discussion among the family lawyers, I thought that was a great solution for the court to just go on record as saying, this is how it's going to go.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I'm still, um, it was pretty well publicized, but I'm still hearing some, some people calling that are representing themselves that are still having issues with parents about that. Um, and wondering how do I go about getting the other side to recognize this orders. So, but it's a, it's been well publicized. So I think the public in general is pretty well aware of it. The third order, um, put a modified the first order and it prohibited judges from conducting non-essential proceedings in person contrary to local, state or national directives. Um, we've had a few shelter in place orders issued here lately. So I think, yeah, you see the obvious relevance of that now. And the governor Abbott had an executive order that limited a group sizes two to 10 or less. And so the order stated the court should not schedule any in-person proceedings that would cause more than 10 people to gather in the courtroom, which I guess is just so happens to be nine Supreme court judges and one assistant.

Speaker 4:

So, I don't know if that had any relevance to it, but I was just noticing that today that I guess it wouldn't him, all of them from getting together court could meet and conference if it needed to but shouldn't need to with all the technology now. Right. So that was the, the third order. Um, pretty much just modify the first and then the fourth order prohibits a trial hearing or other proceeding and an eviction to recover possession of residential property. Um, so the court obviously saw that there were a lot of businesses closing down and foresaw that there could be a lot of people that were hopefully just temporarily out of work and weren't able to pay their rent. And obviously that would be very, uh, unfortunate situation if people were forced out in the streets right now. So essentially eviction proceedings are on hold for a period of time.

Speaker 4:

Um, we haven't getting a few few calls about that from constables and, and tenants in the light, but not too terribly many questions. So hopefully that's running smoothly. And then the, um, the fifth and sixth order really relate to state bar matters. The fifth order put attorney disciplinary proceedings on hold and told the time periods and those proceedings. And then the sixth order just says the state bar election, which is coming up, she'll be conducted entirely electronically. That was due. I mean, as you can imagine, the state bar, just like everybody else is running on a skeleton crew and having to count on a bunch of paper ballots, which just be I think too difficult.

Speaker 3:

Also read Randy Sorrels put out a statement that indicated that the, uh, the mailing house that the state bar was using was that of New York and there was an issue with the stability of being able to handle getting mailings out plus New York being one of the sort of quasi epicenters of, or at least having the higher, one of the higher incidences of uh, coronavirus currently. I wonder as I was thinking about this yesterday, having seen that order, I wonder if we'll ever go back to a mailing now once we've switched to electronic. I mean, we've seen a lot of innovation. That's been forced to come out of this situation. And, uh, it would seem to me that once we handle this electronically, you know, would it make any sense at all to go back to paper ballots and of course, like, you know what my about that would be,

Speaker 4:

I think it's the same as yours. No. Yeah. So I um, I think that most balance were being cashed electronically anyway, but of course paper was still out there and, and as I learned, you know, when we were doing electronic filing, a lot of people felt like, well, you know, the electronic filing is so great, everyone will just do it voluntarily. Of course, after struggling with that for a decade, we figured out that wasn't the case. And sometimes you just have to, you know, get people to move on to the new technology that's out there. And we talked a little bit about how this is sort of forcing, I think any of us really just start getting familiar with some of the technology that's available to us. And I don't doubt that this is going to change the way many of us do business for years going forward.

Speaker 4:

I suspect that we're going to see a lot more people working remotely, probably more opportunities for people to work remotely. People using the technology we're using right now, the video conferencing, uh, and the like and, and the file sharing, like we weren't really using our one drives I think very much here at the court. You know, we really encourage people to do it because we had had instances in which we've lost our server for a couple of days and you know, when that happens eludes your work. And so we were trying to get people to go to one drive, which we felt like was in the cloud and it was more reliable maybe in some of the aging hardware that we had here at the court. Frankly just getting, get everybody to do it. I think this is really gonna push them all to do it and start working that way.

Speaker 4:

Right. And we talked a little bit about zoom accounts and you mentioned in the order that OCA had gotten a state wide one. Have you heard good, bad, indifferent, any feedback on courts using zoom accounts for proceedings? Yeah, so, um, I've talked about my colleagues around the country about whether they're doing oral arguments via video conferencing and actually heard from a few high courts that had held oral arguments via video conference or planning to, um, I didn't really hear any negative feedback from them. I heard some good ideas. One was, uh, one of the clerks, I think it was the clerk in the North Dakota Supreme court, so that, so that everybody would know how much time was remaining. Her camera on her laptop showed the courtroom timer, which I thought was a clever solution for handling the timing situation. I did hear though on Twitter, I think it was Bob Lowe was tweeting about watching the DC circuit court that was live streaming on YouTube, a video oral argument.

Speaker 4:

Uh, and talking about how one of the judges dropped out of the feed, that he thought that there was some instances in which people couldn't hear each other very well. And I can certainly see where this is something you're going to want to, if you're going to have an oral argument via video conference, you want to try it out first. That's something you just want to dive into. You know, you want to make sure that everybody's tested out their microphones and everybody has a good wifi connection. You know, they're, maybe they don't want to be doing it on the cellular connection from their phone. So just some, some things to think about. I think in terms of what you need to plan for before you just jump into it. Uh, I know that judge Emily miscall, uh, who's a judge up in Denton County, uh, has been using zoom at a to hold family, uh, hearings and family cases.

Speaker 4:

And I think that she's learned a lot really about how best to conduct those proceedings be the video conference. Even just some simple things like, you know, having a, a slide that sort of tells people that, that they're in the queue, you know, waiting to go live with the judge and some things about telling people, you know, once it begins, just kind of reminding them that it is being video recorded, that if it's streaming through their YouTube channel, just some things like that, like we'd go through in the courtroom, uh, with all of our oral arguments, you know, we, we remind everyone that the arguments are being webcast live and that they'll be available later. We have an order on our website about webcasting now that says that if you have an objection to it, that you can object to it. We've never had anyone object to it, but I think just some of those things that you probably want to think about before you start with video conferencing, um, proceedings just in terms of making sure that technology is working for you, that you're familiar with how it all works.

Speaker 4:

Um, and also too that you make sure that the parties and the public are aware that that's what you're doing. So I suppose OCA and David Slayton is folks who are super busy trying to get this zoom integration or the zoom rollout to the judges. I mean they've been receptive. Well I know, you know, of course the people you start with are the evangelists for these things. And, and I think, uh, David definitely has a couple of folks at Emily miscall in particular. Um, judgement goals, I think been really great about working with the office quarter ministration on SU Caring's and testing all that out and passing on the other judges and things that she's learning, uh, about how to conduct courtroom proceedings using video conferencing. So I think it's probably will take hold. I think it takes time. You know, it's, it's new to a lot of people and a lot of them aren't gonna probably want to jump into it really until they really need to. But I think more, you know, the longer this goes on, I think we're going to see a need for it. And probably the more judges we'll see that are using video conferencing technology, there's that. And also it seems like the clerk's offices would want to do what they could help facilitate moving the dockets along. You know, we're really at a standstill and I haven't been for a bit and we can only imagine what the ramifications of this are going to be long term. But in the short term, you know, we,

Speaker 3:

it seems like we would need to keep cases moving and not only with the zoom video hearings be a good option for doing that, but there's plenty of motions that that can be heard on submission. The example of summary judgements comes to mind and so I would encourage the clerk's offices and the court administrator staff locally to consider, I mean Travis County is set up to where it should be able to handle this and getting issues presented to the courts for decision. Um, you know, rather than have things just completely come to a halt, it would seem like a good use of the court's time and the staff's time. Once we kind of figure out, you know, what this new normal is going to look like at least in the short term to try and get issues teed up to the courts. Even if it doesn't require a zoom hearing. Hopefully the parties can get together and agree to submit certain things on the papers only. So you know to take a little bit of a load off of the system.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I guess I suppose it's tough on the one hand, you know you've got all these orders saying that you should extend deadlines and you know accommodate requests for extensions and the light can and then you've, you've got to decide, I guess you know what's really important right now, but I know that there are a lot of people that would probably like to get back to work and then they're probably a lot of people's, I would like to, you know, move on with cases and maybe like you say it, both sides are agreeable to it and you can get 'em some judges to start using the video conferencing technology that's available to them to hold some hearings. Maybe they could get up and running and, and start moving some of these things along then that people were agreeable to moving through the courts. And in the long term, it may be once all this is kind of over and we're back to whatever normal is, it may be an access to justice thing that helps out. It gets people in front of courts in ways that they may not have been able to before

Speaker 3:

because of costs, you know, travel times, those types of things.

Speaker 4:

That's a great point. And you know, the, the zoom technology, which every judge in the state now has access to, uh, and which they can stream on, uh, a YouTube channel so that the public has access to it as well if they want to, um, as available on your phone. So any really anyone could use it, um, people, you know, representing themselves could use it as well. Uh, and it might really be a great way for the courts to make access to justice more convenient and faster and more efficient.

Speaker 3:

Well, I have one last question for you, Blake. Should we be on the lookout? I noticed that the, when you put out the last emergency order, I think he tweeted it out on Sunday night at like 9:00 PM, uh, which you know, good for you and keeping the public aware and good for the court for getting these things out there as soon as possible. And without regard for ordinary business hours. Um, are there any further emergency orders that we should expect to see or anticipate coming in the coming days? Well, you know,

Speaker 4:

it's funny you should ask that because yes, a chief justice Nathan heck never sleeps apparently. So Sunday, Sunday evening he emailed and asked for a administrative order number. Uh, and then the next thing you know, we were issuing a, an emergency order. But I, you know, one of the consequences I think of everybody working remotely is that, honestly, I'm less aware now, uh, when those orders are about to come down. And I think some of those conversations that used to happen when we were all in the same room together and in some course I would know about it. All. Some of those conversations are happening now via email between the judges. And I may not necessarily be aware of it before it comes. Um, and, uh, the order, for example, on the evictions, I actually learned about that from a chuckling Dow with the Austin American statesman who said, Hey, I hear you're about to issue this order.

Speaker 4:

And I said, we are. And it turns out we were about to issue that order. So, uh, funny has it. So obviously Chuck doing a great job there. I don't know. He's got better sources than I do, but uh, anyway, so I'm sure that hopefully we're going to start communicating with each other a little better. But yeah, some of them have surprised me just as much as they've surprised you all. I don't know of another one's coming down, but I am now checking my email all hours a day now. And so you may see tweets from me at all hours in the day now and stuff coming out. Well, and on that subject, I've noticed the last couple of days you've been at all hours kind of tweeting out some tips for people that can help them streamline the process and keep things moving. Even courts are kind of on pause. Do you have a tip or anything or a couple of them you'd like to share here just in closing?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I tweeted out this tip. A lot of people were contacting the office about having troubles, trouble submitting motions, you know, that may require an affidavit, um, or may require a notary. Um, so you have a prologue, BJ motions, things like that where they might need a notary and people might want to take a look at uh, online notaries who are authorized to notarize via two way video and audio conferencing under government code four Oh 6.107 through one 13 and civil practice and remedies code one 21.06 also you should take a look at, so we'll practice in a room and use code one 32.001 which offers a, basically a way for a witness to swear to a document without the need for a notary. So check those out. Um, I think you might find that useful since I may not be able to get to a notary in person, may not be able to have them come to an office and notarize something. So I think that's again, taking advantage of the tools that are out there and available to it talks when

Speaker 3:

I want to look into that. That's great. Well I think that's a good point to wrap up with like thanks for coming back on the show and I'll just say basically the same thing I said last time. We expect you'll probably be back again at some point. It would be nice to put a little space in between your next appearance. Hopefully we're managing the coronavirus situation and we're more in the business of returning things to normal than responding to this pandemic. But we really appreciate you coming back. Well, I appreciate you guys and thanks for helping us spread the word about how we can adapt to these times and hopefully everybody get back to work and keep the court system running. That's great. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd be grateful if you'd help us get the word out by recommending it to colleagues you think might benefit from listening. Taking the time to rate it on Apple podcasts would really help us too, and if you have questions, thoughts, or comments, please shoot us an email or message us on Twitter or just reach out through the podcast Facebook page. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time. We wish you all the best and hope you're all staying safe and healthy.

Speaker 2:

[inaudible]

Speaker 1:

thanks for listening to the Texas appellate law podcast. To stay in touch with your hosts. Suggest topics or express interest in coming on the show. Visit us online@textapplapod.com or on Twitter at at text app law pod. The views expressed by the participants on this podcast are their own and not those of their law firms, courts, or employers. Nothing you hear on this show establishes an attorney client relationship or is legal advice.